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English 112 Hot Topics

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    gay marriage

    lynn
    lynn


    Posts : 39
    Join date : 2009-01-18

    gay marriage Empty gay marriage

    Post  lynn Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:37 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwE00w4ddSM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXp8V97HAXQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUjMV3RdeOg

    I spent a lot of time on this, searching for something I felt would be relevant, because this is important to me. I ended up choosing 3 videos. You can watch them all, watch one of them or watch none of them. That's up to you. I do realize that what I'm posting is a bit much, but this is the place where I can respond to how I feel.

    So I'll start:

    Gay marriage. The most relevant position lately was California's Proposition 8, which was on the ballot in the November 2008 election. It passed, and when it did it over rode all previous rulings, changing California's state Constitution so that it restricted the definition of marriage to male-female couples only; thereby eliminating same-sex couples' right to marry. The new constituional measure reads: "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." After this happened, there were demonstrations and protests throughout California and the US. Numerous lawsuits have been filed with the California Supreme Court by same-sex couples and government entities, challenging Prop 8's validity and its effect on previously administered same-sex marriages. The California Supreme Court heard oral arguments on March 5, 2009 and is expected to reach a decision within 90 days.

    Why did Prop 8 pass? It seems to me that many people based their decision of this proposal on the biblical teaching of "one man-one woman", and I feel very differently about this.

    You can base your reasoning on that if you want. However, I personally believe that the Bible says a lot of things. We can either take it for what it is or we can choose to use it as a weapon by focusing on particular passages and using them to discriminate against certain segments of society. I feel that certain passages have been taken out of the entire context and used, throughout our American history, to discriminate against segments of our society that were felt to be "less than". In the past, the Bible has been used to justify slavery and to discriminate against blacks and females. Now that those issues have been somewhat resolved, we have now turned to using God's Word to discriminate against gays and lesbians.

    Many people believe that the Bible is God's Word and, therefore, it cannot and does not change. I disagree. I feel it does change because people change it to fit the current time and the issues at hand. The Bible was originally written thousands of years ago, and it has been interpreted and reinterpreted and reinterpreted again throughout history. I believe that the basis of what is written does not change, but people change their understanding of it to fit with their current beliefs. When we do that, certain passages are brought to the forefront and then used to discriminate, sometimes hatefully, towards certain segments of society. In the meantime, everything else tends to be ignored or forgotten.

    For example 1st Corinthians 11 verse 5-6:

    "And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head."

    Wait. What happened here? Why does no one bring that up or want to talk about this? It's a passage in the Bible and should be no less important, right? As I read it, if I pray then I should cover my head or shave my head. I'm a little confused. If I pray after my shower, with a towel over my head, does that count? Or, maybe I should just cut or shave my hair. Then again, if it's a disgrace (i.e. people would look at me strangely), then I should just cover my head when I pray. It doesn't specify with what. My hands? My towel? A veil? Oh yes. It must be a veil because that's what the Catholic church used to expect of women many years ago. That must be right, then. Well, maybe not because that religion no longer expects that of women.

    This is what I mean. Our society and different religions base customs and beliefs on Biblical passages, without considering everything else surrounding it. If we want to take everything that the Bible says, literally, then that passage above also should be adhered to. Right? But we don't anymore. We pick and choose what we think is relevant to the current time.

    Let's look at this one, from Galations 3:28:

    Because all of you are one in the Messiah Jesus, a person is no longer a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a male or a female.

    Hmmm...I guess that kind of takes care of transgendered people. That's how I see it, anyway. Of course, 150 years ago, I could have said that it relates to the slavery issue.

    Then, there's this one, from Matthew 7:12:

    So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

    I think that one's very important. Treat others as you would want to be treated. As I read it, we are all one. Equal. That includes gays and lesbians. It is not a choice. It is who they are, and I believe they were created that way. And they do not deserve to be treated as being any less than others in our society.

    Consider Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

    As the current saying goes, "What would Jesus do?" Personally, I think he'd be about love and the "human heart". I think he would not judge, but love and accept....and advocate for what is right. Well, that's how I read and interpret the Bible, anyway.
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    scottbecker


    Posts : 29
    Join date : 2009-01-20

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    Post  scottbecker Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:25 pm

    I feel very strong about this issue also, but I think we are on the other side of the issue although though. I read through your post and it seems that you have very strong views and I can respect that. But, it seems that you have no tolerance for the other side or saying that you think that it’s a discrimination against gay people. I have noticed that anytime people discuss this the red flag is up and people say them bible people are cramming there views and interpretation of the bible down our throats. I think, are the christen community really cramming things down your throats or when we say in Gods eyes that is wrong that people feel like your stripped of your free will to do what we feel we can do in this free country. See just as you think it is me or other church people discriminating against gay people, others also discriminate against people with another views rather then the free will. Your bible verses are interruption of a verse and it has many different meanings, in the verse you quoted 1st Corinthians 11 verse 5-6: this in the times of the lord represented women with loose morals, or sexual promiscuity. In the passage Paul is saying she might as well have her hair cut off. It was a way of discussing how a woman should submit to her husband and how a man should love his wife as Christ loved the church. So you have not all the facts with that verse.

    Galatians 3:28: I also seen you put this verse out there, your 100% right about this we are all sons of god. I agree that this is an open invitation to the glory of god. You have to turn from your sin and follow Jesus and not be Luke warm followers but we must turn from our sins and by the grace of god we are forgiven. But no where in the bible is it ok to be sexually immoral in god’s eyes.

    Matthew 7:12 Yes, treat other the way you would like to be treated. Love the sinner hate the sin comes to mind. See the next couple of verses in Matthew discusses anyone that puts these words into practice is like a wise man who built his house on rock. See some people like to try the bible on and twist it the way that fits them, I agree!!!

    In ending I not only thank you for bringing this up and all the comments within your text are great and I really enjoyed reading your opposition to this. God wants us to follow him how he intended it and if you’re praying everyday and believe in the lord with your heart and follow his commands you don’t doubt that Gay marriage is not the way God intended it to be. In no way did I want to offend you and I thought the other side should be told as you feel that way too. Remember God loves you.

    God Bless
    Scott Becker
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    rossowrachel


    Posts : 30
    Join date : 2009-01-23

    gay marriage Empty Re: gay marriage

    Post  rossowrachel Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:22 pm

    I really, really like some of the strong points that you have made in this argument. I am myself a Christian, but I don’t know everything the bible says. I do find it very interesting some of the passages that you found especially being towards women. I do find it very amazing at how we have “strayed” away from some of the things in the bible yet won’t conform on other aspects. My parents and I do get into a lot of fights over what I do compared to what the bible says, yet there are so many things that we have changed on already that honestly the bible is just more or less being manipulated by people to whatever they choose. I am partly bias on the whole gays getting married. I do and don’t have a problem with a person being gay, but then again I do know the bible says between one man and one woman. So I just am not sure.
    lynn
    lynn


    Posts : 39
    Join date : 2009-01-18

    gay marriage Empty Re: gay marriage

    Post  lynn Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:40 am

    scottbecker wrote:I feel very strong about this issue also, but I think we are on the other side of the issue although though. I read through your post and it seems that you have very strong views and I can respect that. But, it seems that you have no tolerance for the other side or saying that you think that it’s a discrimination against gay people. I have noticed that anytime people discuss this the red flag is up and people say them bible people are cramming there views and interpretation of the bible down our throats. I think, are the christen community really cramming things down your throats or when we say in Gods eyes that is wrong that people feel like your stripped of your free will to do what we feel we can do in this free country. See just as you think it is me or other church people discriminating against gay people, others also discriminate against people with another views rather then the free will. Your bible verses are interruption of a verse and it has many different meanings, in the verse you quoted 1st Corinthians 11 verse 5-6: this in the times of the lord represented women with loose morals, or sexual promiscuity. In the passage Paul is saying she might as well have her hair cut off. It was a way of discussing how a woman should submit to her husband and how a man should love his wife as Christ loved the church. So you have not all the facts with that verse.

    Galatians 3:28: I also seen you put this verse out there, your 100% right about this we are all sons of god. I agree that this is an open invitation to the glory of god. You have to turn from your sin and follow Jesus and not be Luke warm followers but we must turn from our sins and by the grace of god we are forgiven. But no where in the bible is it ok to be sexually immoral in god’s eyes.

    Matthew 7:12 Yes, treat other the way you would like to be treated. Love the sinner hate the sin comes to mind. See the next couple of verses in Matthew discusses anyone that puts these words into practice is like a wise man who built his house on rock. See some people like to try the bible on and twist it the way that fits them, I agree!!!

    In ending I not only thank you for bringing this up and all the comments within your text are great and I really enjoyed reading your opposition to this. God wants us to follow him how he intended it and if you’re praying everyday and believe in the lord with your heart and follow his commands you don’t doubt that Gay marriage is not the way God intended it to be. In no way did I want to offend you and I thought the other side should be told as you feel that way too. Remember God loves you.

    God Bless
    Scott Becker

    I appreciate your response and you are right - I do have very strong views. Maybe it does come across as my having "no tolerance for the other side", but as I see it, it is discrimination against gays. Yes, the red flag does go up. I think you were asking whether the Christian community is really cramming things down people's throats or whether, when the Christian community says that in God's eyes it is wrong, people then feel stripped of the free will to do what they want in this free country. Many of these votes seem to be propelled by the Christian community based on their version of what is right and what is wrong. It totally takes away from the idea of free will in a free country. By my saying what I did, am I really discriminating against Christians? In what way? What am I taking anyone's rights away from?

    I agree. Bible verses are interpretted with many different meanings, and are often taken out of context. Humans, throughout history, twist the Bible to the way that fits them and the current times.

    You said, "You have to turn from your sin and follow Jesus and not be Luke warm followers but we must turn from our sins and by the grace of god we are forgiven. But no where in the bible is it ok to be sexually immoral in god’s eyes." That's the way you see it. I have my own way of reading it. Is being gay or lesbian sexually immoral? Love the sinner, hate the sin, right?

    The thing is, I do pray every day and believe in God and have faith in what his intentions are. I consider myself to be a Christian. I have a totally different view, though.

    I was born and raised in a Christian church. I believed everything I was told. Didn't question it. Until my son came to me and told me he believed he was gay. Changed everything in my life. I struggled with that, big time. I won't even go into it all here, because it's a very long story, but it was life transforming. Talk about praying every day for answers and guidance. I did. Through that, I found different answers that I believe are God given, as well. I no longer believe that gays, lesbians or transgendered people are immoral. At all. It is the way they were created. Humans were created in many forms. To judge someone as being immoral because of who they are does cause the red flags to go up, for me.

    I don't know you and who you are and what you're about, just like you don't know me. However, you're a parent. You love your kids, unconditionally, right?. I have a feeling that if you were, one day, to come face to face with the same thing as I did that you'd find your faith in God and learn to see things differently. I did. And I still feel that God loves me and my son.
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    Ashley Wendling


    Posts : 38
    Join date : 2009-01-19

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    Post  Ashley Wendling Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:12 am

    After reading all the posts about gay marriages etc, it definitely got me thinking about what I actually believe about this issue. I as well am a Christian, grew up in a Christian home, private school, church, etc. so I too pretty much believed everything that I was taught from those places. My first way of thinking was just like Rachels, sure I have no problem at all with gay or lesbians but I did know that the Bible states one man and one woman. Like you said, the Bible has many different interpretations and was written thousands of years ago so it’s hard to depict what actually is meant. After all, times HAVE changed and we do adapt to new things and ideas. There is no way of anyone really knowing what is actually meant by each verse. You and Scott have both proposed good arguments. The verses you chose were very interesting but then Scott came in with saying that not all the information may be there…Obviously everyone has there own interpretation and is entitled to their own opinion. Before reading your last comment, I was against the marriage. After reading about you having a son that is gay, got me thinking. What if I was in your position? Surely I would not want to think that he was going to go to hell! After all, it is not like gays and lesbians can CHOOSE to be that way. We cannot help who we like, if we could – I DEFINITETLY would not choose some of the people I have liked!!! Haha I think most of us can say that. So I guess, my hands are now up in the air, I do believe in the one man one woman BUT if I had a son or daughter that went the other way, you better believe that I would support God loving and judging ALL of HIS CHILDREN equally. (Does that make sense?! It does to me but then again their my thoughts! Haha)
    lynn
    lynn


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    Post  lynn Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:02 am

    Thanks, Ashley. Yes, what you said makes sense.

    I can't help myself. I'm a huge advocate on these particular issues, especially because I remember what it was like to be on the other side of it, as well. Life definitely throws curveballs, which makes a person learn that there are other ways of seeing things.
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    andrewrambow


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    Join date : 2009-01-23

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    Post  andrewrambow Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:19 pm

    This is still one of the most highly debated topics of our time. There are many arguments for each side, and I honestly do not think either side is right. I do feel that gay people have a right to be together, but like you mentioned, a marriage is intended to be between a man and a woman. Now with more states allowing for gay marriage, and states like california refusing to recognize marriage between a gay couple is going to cause a lot of controversy. In the constitution, it says that all states are to recognize marriage of another state. This is so that if you are married in one state you do not have to get re married in another. How is this going to work with some states allowing gays to marry, and some that do not? This is also going to give gay people that ability to get married in a state where it is allowed then go back to the state their are from, and it is constitutionally required to be recognize. Overall I do not know where this is going to end, and it is probably not going to end soon. We may never come to a compromise.

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